Dearest:  My guest tonight is Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N., co-author of 
"When Your Body Gets the Blues" The Clinically Proven Program For Women
Who Feel Tired And Stressed And Eat Too Much." Dr. Brown, a Professor in the 
School of Nursing at the University of Washington, is involved in research, 
teaching, and clinical practice.

Dr. Brown has lectured widely and published more than 60 scientific papers. She is 
nationally certified as a family and psychiatric/mental health nurse practitioner 
and provides primary care at the University of Washington Women's Health Care 
Clinic.

Dr. Marie-Annette Brown, conducted an 8-week randomized study called the LEVITY 
Study to see if an all-natural lifestyle program could relieve the symptoms of the 
Body Blues. In Dr. Brown's study, 112 mildly depressed women ages 18-78 took either 
a placebo pill or participated in three simple activities.

The study and the fascinating results are the subject of our chat and of the book, 
"When Your Body Gets The Blues." 

It's a pleasure to welcome you to Power Surge, Dr. Brown.  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  I am delighted to be here, thank you. 


Dearest: Let me start off with the first question. Would you kindly define the
"body blues" and is it more common among one gender or age group than another?


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, the body blues is twice as common in women 
as men, although men do have the problem. The body blues is a form of mild depression 
BUT it is DIFFERENT than what most people think about. Women don't feel hopeless or 
down in the dumps, instead they feel sluggish, irritable, have foggy thinking, sleep 
problems, and what bothers them the most often is the carbohydrate cravings in the 
second half of the day, and weight gain. 

Many women feel like their body is depressed, not necessarily their minds.  Some 
people experience it similar to jet lag, or the feeling of hibernation.  Different 
women have different symptoms, but the main ones are feeling tired and overeating. 


Dearest:  You know, these are all very common symptoms during the menopausal years, 
so how does one differentiate, for example, between your body blues and the type of 
depression, fatigue and overeating women go through during perimenopause, or, in 
fact, at other times in their lives? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  The body blues is common during menopause and, yes, 
they are similar symptoms and menopause can make it worse.  One of the main triggers 
for the body blues is hormonal fluctuations but there are other causes as well that 
affect women across the lifespan. 


Snicker:  I am a fifty one year old who almost a year ago had a total hysterectomy. 
Depression has been very bad. I married 31 years ago had a son in spite of the fact 
that I knew I was gay. Now I know it is only coming back to haunt me. First time in 
my live I have met someone who is also gay. Also married. Is there anything that 
will help with this depression? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, it sounds like you FEEL depressed and it
is important to see your health care provider for a complete evaluation.  There are 
physical causes of depression as well.  There are so many approaches to treating 
depression and it helps to have a health care provider serve as your companion to 
sort through those options.  Our work was with MILD Depression where some women
felt somewhat depressed while others did not FEEL depressed it was the physical 
symptoms. 

We had 112 women in our research and since then we've worked with hundreds of
women across the country. 


Dearest:  Just one thing, Dr. Brown, you talk about discussing the depression with 
your healthcare practitioner -- but your methods are natural and most doctors and 
healthcare practitioners will almost automatically prescribe anti-depressants and 
other drugs. How does that fit in with your program?


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  In our program we developed an all natural 
approach using light, exercise and vitamins.  The reason I send people to their 
health care provider is that often women may be anemic (irregular bleeding during 
menopause) or have thyroid problems, etc.  Being a nurse practitioner I want to deal 
with the whole person so I make sure physically people are okay. I'd love to tell you 
about our approach. 


Dearest:  Please do. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  What we suggest doesn't need a health care 
practitioner, it is simple but very specific and based on all the research we 
reviewed to put the program together. 

First, light. We are light deprived as a society.  We don't get enough light to 
maintain a normal mood and have our body's properly energized.  Think about it.
For billion of years we lived our lives outdoors until 100 years ago. Now we are 
rarely outside.  The problem is that we need light coming into our eyes, the
light you can only get outdoors or with a light therapy device.  Light into our
eyes sends a message to our brain to make the "feel good" biochemicals like serotonin 
that you've heard of.  Those biochemicals give us energy, help us think better, and 
desire food less. If we don't have enough light then its like we are hibernating.

Our brains aren't making enough serotonin which is the energizing biochemical.  
Instead, we have all this melatonin the sleep hormone which never gets turned off
in the morning meaning when we wake up the light in our eyes turns down the sleep 
hormone melatonin and turns up the energy serotonin.  If we never go outside our 
brain biochemicals aren't working right.  In our program we have women spend 20 
minutes extra OUTSIDE regardless of the weather. 


Dearest: Am I correct in assuming you're talking about using the light, exercise 
and vitamins in conjunction with one another? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, 20 minutes of outdoor exercise (brisk 
walking). So, do both light and exercise together and then we add vitamins that have 
been shown to boost mood in women.  Our program had those 3 parts. 


GraceMiguelle:  My question is, how can I know for sure I have this syndrome. Do you 
have a check off list or a quiz I can take. I think this fits me to a T! 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, we developed a fun interactive quiz you can 
go to our website bodyblues.com and it takes about 5 minutes
or we have the quiz in our book, but basically if you have the symptoms I've been 
discussing then you probably do. 1 out of every 4 women do at any given time.


FoggyBrain:  As described in one of the questions earlier on: for irritability, 
sluggish, foggy thinking and these awful cravings, I have been very good at 
controlling the sugar cravings.  I do eat and eat enough, so it's hard to determine 
at times what my body goes through each month, because each month is different,
I do eat and eat.  But, I do not gain the weight.  Is this normal? What are the signs 
of being anemic? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Some people just have a faster metabolism and
I'm assuming its ok that you're not gaining weight.  The main symptom of anemia is 
fatigue. 


Dearest:  FoggyBrain, remember, too, fatigue itself can be a symptom of menopause. 


Jimi:  What about conditioning due to stressful living situations over a long period 
of time? Then hitting menopause? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Prolonged stresses is one of the main triggers 
for the body blues.  It also lowers the serotonin and other brain feel good 
substances and women take twice as long as men to replace their serotonin after 
stress. 


KBD:  How can you tell if not wanting to have sex is from menopause, the body blues 
or because you have fallen out of love? In my case we get along well except for the 
sex thing. I would be happy with no sex, but he can't stand that idea. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  It IS hard to tell, having decreased interest in 
sex during menopause is as you know really common.  What has helped the women
I work with is to try the program, boost their serotonin naturally and then see
what happens to their libido.  Doing things to make us feel better about our bodies 
helps. 


CKale:  I have gone from Estradiol 2mg 2x a day to Triest 2mg 2x a day. Some days I 
can't even move I am so groggy others I am fine.  Any suggestions? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  YES, try our program, start with outdoor light, 
brisk walking 20 minutes a day and the six vitamins.  Serotonin is the energizing 
biochemical, we need to do things to give us more serotonin, like light and 
exercise. 


Dearest:  Dr. Brown, what are the six vitamins you recommend and why?  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  50 mg each of Vitamins B1, B2, B6. 400mcg of 
folic acid, 400 IU of Vitamin D and 200 mcg of selenium (which is a mineral). 

We did a comprehensive review of all the vitamin research and found sound scientific 
studies that showed these particular doses of these vitamins worked to boost mood.  
They are the building blocks for making serotonin in the brain. 


Dearest:  These are all vitamins recommended in Power Surge - in fact, those doses 
are in the Active Women's Multi -- and as you say, you don't find these doses in 
most multi-vitamins. Thanks. 


Dianne:  How can diet affect depression, especially carbs? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Sugar, sugar sugar.  When we eat refined 
carbohydrates, it spikes our blood glucose and insulin and then it all comes 
crashing down and pulls energy and mood down with it.  We need food with fiber
that is metabolized more slowly and that positively affects our mood. 


SBHamee:  I am 49 and into perimenopause what do I do when I know I have the body 
blues? I was on Prozac for a year and gained 13 lbs. I don't take it now. I do 
exercise and this helps with me being moody and tired.  I do not want to take 
hormones. I would like to get through this a natural way if that is possible.
What kind of vitamins do you recommend?  I'm sorry I think you just answered that.  
Maybe I should go get your book!! 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  The vitamins are listed above. It's great that you
exercise.  Think about doing OUTDOOR exercise and finding ways to get more natural 
light. 


BeachlessAunt:  I'm having a hot flash as I type. I gained 20 lbs in last year and now 
I want sex. Think I'm nuts? Not much passion for anything. How long does it take to 
see results with your program? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Our research program was 8 weeks and by that time 
women's depression scores were cut in half.  Many women have told me on our website 
that they felt better in days or weeks. 


Lentje:  Would the vitamins you suggest affect high blood pressure or react with any 
blood pressure drugs?


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  NO.  Also remember about weight gain asked 
earlier that low serotonin increases carbohydrate cravings. 


Dearest:  Lentje, you might want to look at the recommendations page at
www.power-surge.com/recommend.htm which tells you all about vitamins
and which are contraindicated with certain medications. 


Debbi57:  For those of us working a lot of "dark" hours, i.e. retail, is there any 
substitute for outdoor light? I get plenty of exercise on the sales floor :)  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Can you take light breaks at work or eat your 
lunch outside? 


Debbi57:  Not usually.


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Every little bit helps, the women in our program 
did their outdoor walk before they went to work or at lunch or before they drove 
home if that's what it took to find outdoor light.  A light box can also be very 
helpful for some people who simply can't get outside.  You don't have to have 
seasonal affective disorder (SAD) to benefit from a light box.  We didn't use them 
in our program because we wanted it to be all natural and inexpensive, but light 
therapy devices are great, and have been proven to decrease carbohydrate cravings
in just 3 days. 


Dearest:  I was going to ask what Debbie did. What specific suggestions can you 
share about providing the proper "light" environment in our homes? Do we throw open 
the windows and shout, "I'm as depressed as heck and I can't take it anymore?"  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, yes.  Do everything you can to open blinds, 
orient furniture toward the windows, like your desk.  Paint walls a lighter color, 
get light tubes or sky lights.  Brighter bulbs also help but they're not enough.  
Every little bit helps, like choose a window seat on a bus, plane etc. 


Intrepid:  What vitamins/supplements do you recommend? I was off HRT for about 6 
months after the big scare. My bones and joints hurt something awful when I quit the 
HRT and have now resumed with Estrace .5mg twice a day.  I'm feeling better since. 
Your opinion, please. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  The HRT decision is a very personal one and 
everyone is different.  If women have symptoms and feel better on hormones they
need to honor their own intuition.  There are several forms of hormones, Estrace
is a plant based one which is better than Premarin in my opinion, but there are 
compounded forms of estrogen too.  


Dearest:  Intrepid, you might also want to look into glucosamine and chondroitin 
sulfate for the joint/bone aches and pains.


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, definitely. 


SuperGrammieJean:  So what causes sleeplessness if we are all so tired? My problem 
is I can't seem to stay asleep.  A few hours of sleep and I'm wide awake.  I take 
Elavil to help me stay asleep. I have hypoglycemia, so I know how eating plays into 
how I feel.


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  The temperature changes are what awakens us. 
Elavil can help a lot with staying asleep and if it works for you fine. To help the 
fatigue we need light and exercise as I said earlier to give us more energy serotonin. 


Dearest:  Marie-Annette, how are you holding up for your first chat?  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Great, thanks. 


Dearest:  I told you it was a snap :) 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  There is so much to say, I just cant type it all. 


Dearest:  Then, you'll have to come back to say the rest! 


Jimi:  Even now that most aspects of my life have improved greatly, I don't feel 
motivated or eager or that there is actually a point to most things. I feel defeated 
and depleted most of the time and all the positive thinking still comes up as a 
negative.  If the "extreme stress" went on for 30 years, how long does it take for 
my depleted serotonin to replace itself. Then there are all the symptoms of "the 
Pause" to deal with. I always have the doors and windows open. Hate being closed in - 
so lots of light. Any tiny thing that happens now sends me into an overwhelming state.  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Jimi, you may be clinically depressed, chronic 
stress can do that.  Try the program and also see a professional to help you sort 
through this. 


Cindy:  You say the body blues are caused by low hormones. I am not sure where I am 
in peri-menopause, but I am still having normal periods (with some small changes). 
Is it possible for my hormones to be this low and still have regular periods? I have 
all of the symptoms of body blues, but not hot flashes or sweats. I exercise and 
take multi-vitamins now. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, perimenopause is a prime time for the body 
blues.  Hormones are one of several causes.  Check out how you exercise. We found in 
the research that 20 minutes of MODERATE intensity exercise boosts mood and most 
people don't know that.  If you have light and exercise together it doubles the mood 
benefits. 


Twinkle:  Any suggestions for anxiety/panic attacks? I'm on "Paxil" now. Thanks!  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  In our program we just dealt with women with mild 
depression and the body blues symptoms.  Paxil is good for panic attacks and 
exercise decreases anxiety for 5 hours afterwards. 


Marlo:  I eat the soy pasta, take Revival and all the b-vitamins, plus 400 units of 
E.  I find soy really helps the flashes and mood swings.  I also feel when you get 
near people who are depressed you become that way. So you should stay away from 
them. What do you think? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Do what brings you joy in your life.


Marlo:  She's my sister-in law 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  We can be around people and not be drawn into 
their dramas.  It's hard, but we can't choose our families! 


CKale:  Why not just take serotonin?


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  There is no serotonin pill.  Our bodies will make 
serotonin naturally the way we were designed if we just move our bodies and get the 
light and right nutrients. 


GraceMiguelle:  So, I'm back. I took your quiz at bodyblues.com and I scored 37. I 
knew I had the Body Blues! I ordered your book and I can't wait to start. I'll let 
you know how I'm doing in a few weeks! Thanks for the help!  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Wonderful, please let us know how it goes. 


Dearest:  Dr. Brown, what are the most common symptoms of women experiencing the 
body blues? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Feeling sluggish, irritable, foggy thinking, 
carbohydrate cravings, especially in the 2nd half of the day and therefore weight 
gain.  They are hibernation-type feelings. 


MaryO:  I noticed that the Levity Study was only 8 weeks. Have you tried people on 
this for longer than 8 weeks? If so, did the good results continue, or diminish? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  YES.  We followed women and a year and a half 
later most were still doing the program and feeling better.  It's a program for 
life. 

Like anything we don't do it all the time.  Sometimes life happens but we can just 
get back on it, put on the walking shoes again and head outside. 


Dearest:  Speaking of the LEVITY study, "The Effects of a Multi-Modal Intervention 
Trial of Light, Exercise, and Vitamins on Women's Mood," I see "light," "exercise," 
and "vitamins," in LEVITY, but what does the rest of it stand for? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Intervention Therapy, we just needed those words 
to have an acronym! 


Dearest:  Ahhh... thank you. 


Hot:  Even though I take 10 mg. of Ambien each night, I have trouble falling and 
staying asleep. I've upped my estradiol to 1mg. per day, am drinking Revival Soy 
every day, drink Sleepytime tea before bedtime, but just can't fall/stay asleep. I 
am so tired all the time! My doctor has done tests, and says everything is fine. 
I had a complete hysterectomy 3 years ago, been on Ambien for 2 years.  I want to 
get off, but can't sleep at all and have weird side effects from sleep deprivation. 

I take liquid vitamins (I don't have a large intestine, so I need liquid vitamins) 
and B-complex. My doctor won't give me B 12 shots (though I think it would help with 
energy during the day). I take the sublingual, but it doesn't seem to be enough. 
What can I do to regain vitality and live the life I know I was meant to live? 
I try to get as much sunlight as possible. I live in Florida.


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Bright light has been proven to boost melatonin 
levels and improve sleep. The more we turn off the melatonin in the mornings with
light the more robustly it comes back at night when we need it. I would reconsider 
Ambien, and talk to your health care provider about something like Trazodone. 


Hot:  I tied trazodone.  That lasts for about 1 hour, then I'm awake again. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  I wish I had a magic bullet, sorry. 


Lentje:  I live in Sydney Australia. I am outdoors quite a lot and we have so much 
sunshine. Is Vitamin D essential for me? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, for everyone. 


Dearest:  With the state of the world the way it is now, maybe we shouldn't mention 
"bullets" :( 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  50% of people in USA are deficient in Vitamin D, 
and yes - no bullets.  We need Vitamin D to maintain a normal mood.  One study 
showed an improvement in 5 days of Vitamin D taken at the end of a winter season. 


Dearest:  And to absorb the calcium we take. Lots of women don't know you must take 
vitamin D for your body to properly absorb calcium. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes 


SBHamee:  How do you feel about St. John's Wort for the mood swings, anxiety and 
depression?  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  It's one option for mild depression and if my 
patients want to try it I support them doing what feels right.  It's just important 
to monitor.  It's a medicine.   


Dearest:  But St. John's Wort is very effective in treating depression. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, mild depression. 


Dearest:  Yes, that's true. 


Isla:  We have very high UV here (New Zealand), so I wear sunglasses most of the 
time when outside (I work mostly outside, fortunately). Am I affecting the light to 
my brain with sunglasses? Ought I to take them off for some of my outside time?  


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  GREAT question. 


Dearest:  Yes, I have the same problem, too. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, sunglasses block 85% of the mood enhancing 
light.  But you need protection from the UV light but regular glasses can protect 
your eyes from UV light. 


Isla:  Does it need to be bright sunlight then, or just daylight? 


Dearest:  But not from the glare, which is my problem. 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  It's not the darkness that protects your eyes its 
the UV coating they put on them. 

True, with glare you need sunglasses, just get the lightest tint possible.  Any kind 
of daylight can have UV light, any kind of outdoor light can help your mood. There is 
30 times more light outdoors on a rainy day than indoors. 


Dearest:  Good idea. 


GraceMiguelle:  Okay, so I just sent my husband to bodyblues.com and he scored a 24, 
which means he has the Body Blues, too. Can mean get the Body Blues? He says he wants 
to go on the program with me. Is that okay? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  YES, men can have the Body Blues, its just twice 
as common in women.  It's a great program to do together!!! 


TeeBee:  What are your feelings about DHEA ? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  I don't deal with that, sorry 


Dearest:  Teebee, there's information about DHEA in some of the articles about
natural hormones in the Educate Your Body area of the Web site. You might want 
to read Natural Hormones, and Your Hormones. There's also an 
entire newsletter devoted to DHEA in the reading room. 


Isla:  How much Vitamin D does the body make when skin is exposed to sunlight? Isn't 
it enough? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Yes, the body makes enough if you get 20 minutes 
of light on your skin a day, but far north like I am in Seattle in the winter there 
isn't any UV light to make Vitamin D even if I went outdoors in a bathing suit.


Dearest:  Marie-Annette, you mention 20 minutes of exercise per day. Why do so many 
people think they have to do strong workouts when they can get the same benefits 
from regular, consistent exercise for a few minutes each day? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  They don't realize that for MOOD benefits 20 
minutes is all you need. 

In fact, the research shows if you exercise too hard you can increase stress and 
decrease mood, so that is why we picked a very specific pace for our program. 


Dearest:  But even for health benefits in general, won't a 20 minute brisk walk
each day be very helpful? (as long as we're not trying to become body builders). 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Oh, and one study showed that 10 minutes of brisk 
outdoor walking improved mood and energy more than a candy bar. Yes, 20 minutes 
is good for your heart and cancer prevention as well. 


GraceMiguelle:  Can I buy the vitamins separately? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Our program used the vitamins individually and 
you can get them at your local grocery store.  If you want an all in one tablet 
there is a company that makes them BUT you don't need that. 


Jimi:  How do negative ions affect us and mood? Like after rain? 


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.:  Negative ions improve mood.  That's why being 
close to water helps plus water reflects light and helps boost mood. 


Dearest:  Dr. Marie-Annette Brown, see, you did it! Thank you for sharing such
important information for women to combat the "body blues." I recommend everyone 
read Dr. Marie-Annette Brown and Jo Robinson's book, "When Your Body Gets The Blues: 
The Clinically Proven Program For Women Who Feel Tired And Stressed And Eat Too 
Much."


Marie-Annette Brown, Ph.D., R.N.: Thank you for having me.


 

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